the Van Winkle Family with Jerry Moore (ep 2, 36).

Aaron Anderson Rock Van Winkle was born into slavery and is believed to have been one of the first enslaved persons to be brought to Northwest Arkansas.  After emancipation, he became a landowner, father, and community member in Bentonville, Arkansas. But even today, his story remains largely absent from public memory. In this episode, we sit down with local historian Jerry Moore to explore Rock’s life and legacy, and to consider how the stories of formerly enslaved people have been preserved, distorted, or forgotten in the place they helped shape.

After the interview, we join Mr. Moore on a tour of three significant sites tied to Rock Van Winkle’s life: the stone farmhouse he owned, his grave at Bentonville Cemetery, and a rarely noticed public tablet at James Berry Park. Together, these places invite us to reflect on how memory is rooted in place and how public recognition is often reserved for only a few.

https://www.theunderview.com/episodes/the-underview-the-aaron-anderson-rock-van-winkle-family-with-jerry-moore

About the underview:

The underview is an exploration of the development of our Communal Theology of Place viewed through the medium of bikes, land, and people to discover community wholeness.

Website: ⁠⁠theunderview.com⁠⁠
Follow us on Instagram: ⁠⁠@underviewthe
Host: @mikerusch

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Transcript

episode preview.


[00:00:01] jerry moore.: ​most of us have seen society change politically, religiously, economically, racially, but still in the back of our minds we sometimes have trouble to throw away the past that I feel had been overplayed and we had to build a future out of something. It's like birth. We come into this world being fed by somebody else, clothed by somebody else, bathed by somebody else, kissed and hugged, and even ignored by somebody else. That's how society is. Someone else built something for us, and it's how we take what they build to make our life better.


episode intro.


[00:01:32] jerry moore.: we are listening to the underview, an exploration and the shaping of our place.

[00:01:36] jerry moore.: My name is Mike Rusch, and as we approach the end of the season, we're returning to where the season first began. It's a story that has been etched into the buildings, the land remembered in our oral histories, and buried beneath the literal ground of Northwest Arkansas.

[00:01:50] jerry moore.: It's the story of Aaron Anderson. Van Winkle, known as Rock. He was a boy born into slavery, brought to northwest Arkansas in the 1830s with the Anderson family, who he learned about earlier in this season.

[00:02:02] jerry moore.: He would eventually become known as one of the most skilled and sought after builders in Northwest Arkansas. His craftsmanship helped shape the physical structures of this region. Numerous homes, courthouses, cities, and even the most iconic building in Arkansas, that's Old Main at the University of Arkansas. Yet his name and influence remains absent from most public records.

[00:02:24] jerry moore.: Today we're joined by sociologist and historian Jerry Harris Moore, whose research has helped reveal the life and legacy of Aaron Anderson "Rock" Van Winkle. Jerry's work at Hobb State Park, where the Van Winkle Mill one stood and in the archives of Benton County. Offers us an essential both sociological and historical lens. One that centers the contributions of a man enslaved and later freed on this land, and whose descendants are still part of this community today. In this conversation, Jerry walks us through the historical record who Rock Van Winkle was and how he became one of the earliest builders of the Ozarks, And why this story matters, as we try to tell the fuller and more honest account of Northwest Arkansas.

[00:03:07] jerry moore.: So much of this season has been about memory, who we remember, what we forget, and how we repair it. But it's also about place, how land holds story, how people shape the land, and how our theology of place must be rooted in that reality.

[00:03:22] jerry moore.: I believe that the road to Wholeness lies in reconnecting with these stories of people and land and working to repair what is missing or has been erased to form a renewed understanding of ourselves and our place. This collective understanding what I've been calling our _*Communal Theology of Place*_, the things that we believe about ourselves in the place that we live, that it can't be whole until all the stories and all the memories are acknowledged.

[00:03:46] jerry moore.: This episode and the episode to follow is one of those stories.

[00:03:50] jerry moore.: Today our episode comes in two parts that are kind of sandwiched together. We're gonna first sit with Jerry Moore at his home, and then he's gonna take us on a tour of some of the most significant sites of Rock Van Winkle's Life here in Bentonville, Arkansas. Then we're gonna return and finish our episode.

[00:04:05] jerry moore.: Alright. We've got a whole lot to work through today. Let's get into it.


from Jerry Moore's home. 


[00:04:12] mike.: ​Well, I have the privilege today of sitting down with Jerry Harris Moore, who is a sociologist, and I'm gonna say historian. I don't know if you would claim that title or not, but Mr. Moore, thank you for being willing to sit down with me.

[00:04:24] mike.: And we're here to talk about Aaron Anderson Rock Van Winkle, of which you have done probably all of our public memory and all of our understanding of who this man was. It comes from you, you are the instigator, I guess, in many ways of of bringing this history back into our public memory. And so, Mr. Moore, welcome to this conversation. Thanks for being here with me today.

[00:04:45] jerry moore.: I'm glad to be here. To get started. A colleague of mine at, NWACC, Dr. Chris Huggard is a historian, teaches history, and we've known each other a long time. And one day in the office hallway, he was working on a project and he said, I've been trying to get more about blacks in Bentonville and it's not very much about, and I said, I mentioned Ms. Joe Hall. I said she was Rock van Winkles. Granddaughter, I believe it was, and he said, oh, okay. So I went on down the hall and come back. I came back and I said I'd like to help you. With this project on what you're doing and especially Rock Van Winkle 'cause his family history or his life history is close to my Grandpa Moore down in Scott County. And he said, sure enough. And so we started from that, viewpoint we worked very well together.

[00:05:36] jerry moore.: I took the sociological perspective because I felt like that Rock's contribution is building community. He helped build this northwest Arkansas community. He happened to be with Peter Van Winkle that many knew knew about, and as they developed a close relationship, I. I think lots of times we think that every black that worked for White was a slave, but, and he did acquire Rock when he was young. We don't have papers to know for sure if he bought him or just start working for him. And so this relationship turned into be a strong I will use the word partnership and after the Civil War, they came back from Texas, Rock and his wife and their new baby. Yeah. Came back with Peter and his family to out at War Eagle and in that area Van Winkle Holler and their journey began there.

[00:06:32] jerry moore.: And as time went on, I think lot of the history has not been passed through the black Van Winkle family like it has the white Van Winkles. And I'm using that only to distinguish the difference. You mean we not go by names and lots of people, when I say Rock Van Winkle, they don't realize that was a black person and they thought it was Peter's son and so forth. But through the discussion with Peter's ancestries, they made it perfectly clear even in the writing by one of his granddaughters or great-granddaughters, the connection of Peter and Rock and Mrs. Van Winkle and Jane was very close. And that relationship lasted throughout their lifetime. 

[00:07:20] mike.: Just real quick, can you clarify that real quick? 

[00:07:22] jerry moore.: Okay. What I tried to distinguish is that Peter and his wife was white. Rock and his wife Jane was black. So the last name Van Winkle, which many people know historically that they took on the slave Master's name. In this particular case, Rock was bought here by the Andersons, out by, which is down the airport, and Peter acquired Rock. We don't know how. And so that made that connection important.


why interest in Rock Van Winkle.


[00:07:57] mike.: As you've written a great deal that's been published in Arkansas Historical Quarterly. This goes back to 2021. Yeah. So this is not that long ago. And we'll make sure to share this full report with everyone that's listening. But why this person? What was your interest and motivation for trying to do all the work that you did to collect all this information, to tell this story? Why is this story important? 

[00:08:18] jerry moore.: It is important for many reasons, that unknown history and correct history, there's a difference. History is sometime is for the writing and the mystery and the folklore and the movies and true reality doesn't always come through. And after knowing his granddaughter, Ms. Joe Hall. And the conversations I had with her on several occasions in her house and traveling to church meetings or just driving around. I knew of him what little she knew 

[00:08:51] mike.: because she was a direct descendant.

[00:08:53] mike.: Yes.

[00:08:53] mike.: Of Rock. 

[00:08:54] jerry moore.: Yes. And when she did a part of a KUAF story on the black communities in Northwest Arkansas Bentonville, Eureka Springs and Fayetteville, and Cane Hill and those areas. She mentioned Rock Van Winkle again, and she said, I dunno why it was called Rock. And so by having that, I felt it was important to bring in light his contribution that he made to northwest Arkansas that many people did not realize that's who it was.

[00:09:25] mike.: Why has this not been a part of our public memory or more of a part of our public memory? 

[00:09:30] jerry moore.: Since I didn't grow up in, in this part of Arkansas, I can't answer that. You can go by on what history has said or how history have deleted or mood size, the the black and white relationship, the prejudice and so forth. I couldn't say why it had not been here. Because as I did my research, the black community known as the clique was very important in building the economics and working within the areas of sawmill and grist mills and timbering.

[00:10:05] jerry moore.: That was not usual job that they held. Like in eastern Arkansas, the cotton, and then down in later on in the 1800's coal mining in South Sebastian County, south of Fort Smith. But Rock's history paralleled my grandfather Calvin Moore in Scott County. And I felt like I had a background from Calvin's life that will coincide with that of Rock. And I found that to be true. .


process of collecting this story.


[00:10:31] mike.: As you went through this process of collecting all of this story, talk about that process a little bit. What did that entail? 

[00:10:36] jerry moore.: Research. Be sure that I documented everything, be sure I was getting the right material. I went to the archives for the county. Very helpful. The Benton County Historical Society, very helpful. Different ones that worked within the community and worked with the Historical society I was able enough to look at real documents. Even looking at Rock's signature and his tax books, his voting records, he became real. And and I felt that was very important. So it was a year or two research to, to be sure.

[00:11:11] jerry moore.: One thing I learned working with Dr. Huggard documentation and references, where do you get your references? Sociology use data and statistics, and historian use historical records to prove that point. And so I had combined it that, so this article is sociologically as well as historical.

[00:11:29] mike.: And what does that element bring to it when you talk about the sociological aspect?

[00:11:32] jerry moore.: Sociological, sociological brings to writings the economics, the religion, education, family. Other services within the community and how people interact with each other. Interaction. Historically, blacks and whites only interacted for service, and which sociology says that any action we do with anyone it's sociologically 'cause how we respond to people. The way we dress, the way we walk, our personality and who we socialize with is the sociological part of the community, which many people don't quite understand. 

[00:12:11] mike.: Because the historical record is important, and you've laid this has been laid out very well. But this sociological perspective, you're talking about Aaron Anderson Van Winkle before the Civil War while he was enslaved. And then he goes to Texas during the Civil War. He comes back as a free man, still within this same social structure. And yet his story stood out very differently than probably most people of that time. 

[00:12:36] jerry moore.: Rock like many that we don't know about. They, after they come back from the war, they had a whole new perspective and the society put 'em in the mold that community wanted to be in. And of course the same, they took their names and, but, they took the names after Freeman. They took, they have names during that time and even in the census records before 1870, they were just male, female, age and that was it. But Rock and many others chose to stay where they were and he chose to be with the Van Winkles. And I felt he knew his place, but his place was to better his life as well as Peter and his family. And that's why I think he chose to stay where he was. And he built his own social class status that was different than most blacks of the area of the time, and I think that was important.

[00:13:34] jerry moore.: He lived within two cultures. He dealt with the business world of Peter and then he dealt with interaction in the black community, the organization he belonged to and the marriages between families, his family, and other black families. He lived in two different cultures, which you can live very peaceful is what you want and what the people in the community brings it out to be. What they want to see is what they want to see is important and some people want to see the truth and others want to see the story play the storyline. 

[00:14:08] mike.: From your perspective as a sociologist, we talk about Rock Van Winkle and his notoriety is based on the fact that he was treated a little better. He had better opportunity. He had the chance to live maybe just a more normal life and that this exceptionality that sometimes that can come along with this story based on what should have been normal at the time. How do we understand that in context with other formerly enslaved people that may have been in the area?

[00:14:35] jerry moore.: Remember there was a small population. Blacks during the slavery time in the area and to protect their slaves, they took 'em to Texas. And some of the families went to Van Buren, which was in the federal control. And and when they came back, Rock and many others knew their place in society. They knew where society wanted them to be. And many times they played the role. Or where they wanted to be, but down deep you can't often say you don't know the feelings that, that Rock and Peter had and the relationship that Jane and Peter's wife developed. We were told by family members they ate at the same table. That was not in the norms of society at that time. And we kept, we want to think about that. We didn't live it. We only have a history books and then those of us that had relatives that was different from what society is, is only why you were so different. And that's something that we received.

[00:15:39] jerry moore.: I think what happened here is that Peter's family kept their history going, where Rock family did not, for whatever reason it would be. And many black families did that. They didn't want to know that your family was too close to the white that owned you, or even, you can define and you can't had emotions. And sociologically they had emotions, they had feelings for each other and Rock's feelings for Peter helped him out.


Rock's contribution to Northwest Arkansas.


[00:16:11] mike.: Maybe give us a snapshot, if you can. This may be impossible question, but what is Rock Van Winkle's contribution to what Northwest Arkansas has become. 

[00:16:21] jerry moore.: In doing the research we found that Rock was more than a timberman working in the sawmill day after day.

[00:16:28] jerry moore.: Rock, after they returned to northwest Arkansas, the area had to be rebuilt and Peter had the timber, and Peter had Rock and they together helped build the institutions that we now walk with on the shadows.

[00:16:44] jerry moore.: And one of the major contributions and landmark that I think Rock Van Winkle developed that we see every day is the University of Arkansas Old Main. We have a picture of the timber rails of bringing the timber into build Old Main that rock delivered in the 1870s when the building was being built and being on that campus, I did not know that. And after I found out that he did that, I knew why I felt the way I did in Old Main.

[00:17:17] jerry moore.: It is always been a connection and one of the sweetest part of the university happens every day that people don't realize is the playing of the alma mater at Old Main. I listened to that during my happy days at the university and I listened to my sad days, the days I had to make decisions, but I did not realize that a black man help build that monument, that building, which has a whole different viewpoint from that point on,

[00:17:44] mike.: Obviously the University of Arkansas is a land grant institution, which was segregated at the time that Rock was part of building that facility, right? It wasn't desegregated until I believe 1948. 

[00:17:55] jerry moore.: Yes. 

[00:17:55] mike.: Old Main, I would argue is the most iconic building, not only in northwest Arkansas, probably the state. And our association with that building is tells you something, right? Like yes, but to create the sentinel building that represents who we are as a region and as a state. His story has not really been a part of that.

[00:18:16] mike.: No.

[00:18:16] mike.: It's not told anywhere that I'm aware of. 

[00:18:18] jerry moore.: No. It has not been. 

[00:18:20] mike.: Why? 

[00:18:21] jerry moore.: No one passed it on. You are sitting here in my office and behind you is the picture of Silas Hunt, the first, the one that integrated the school in 1948.

[00:18:31] jerry moore.: I worked in that building 19 years that Silas Hunt was a law student and he died three days before I was born. And I wound up in that building for 19 years. And so I've been under the spirits and feelings of two men, two great mens at the campus, the one that build the Old Main and the one that build a new community for us to finally come part of Silas Hunt as well. So those two men has in common to my life. And so that I had that to fall back on too. 

[00:19:05] mike.: What is Northwest Arkansas missing by this part of the story not being included? 

[00:19:10] jerry moore.: I think Northwest Arkansas is missing lot of its history. Not only Rock's history, but other people's history. We centered around modern day organizations, corporate America, and didn't realize if it wasn't for Rock, corporate America would be here today. And it is ironic that he faces Walmart's headquarters every day as a sunrise and sunset over that Empire, Rock is looking.

[00:19:40] jerry moore.: He didn't realize that. And Rock's Place in the cemetery is the, oh sorry black cemetery or white cemetery Black sections. You stop and think, power is in that place. Rock's Power is just as strong as you look across to Peel. And look over to James Berry and then look over to Sam Walton. All Frontiermen and Rocks look towards the west at the West was expansion that he and Peter built. Look who is resulting from it. Today we are. And there's so much history across the country like that is not known and not passed. If you don't pass history to your family, you have nothing to say. You have nothing to say. I introduced Rock to his own great-great grandchildren. 

[00:20:27] mike.: Yeah, tell me about this, because as part of this research you were able to locate fifth generation descendants here in northwest Arkansas, who were not even aware of this story. Can you tell me what happened? 

[00:20:39] jerry moore.: Well, I wasn't aware of Barbara, Ms. Carr and her sister cause I can't recall deep discussion by their aunt, Ms. Joe Hall. And so when I start doing this, I asked Ms. Goodley that does my hair I said, are there any descendants of Ms. Joe?

[00:20:58] jerry moore.: Barbara Carr.

[00:21:00] jerry moore.: "I said, really?"

[00:21:01] jerry moore.: And she, I did not know that 'cause Ms. Hall didn't have her children. And so I called and she said, yeah. And so that's how I got connected. 

[00:21:08] mike.: Tell me the story. How did that go? When you told her of this connection, was she aware of it? 

[00:21:13] jerry moore.: It she had heard bits and pieces of it, and I had an insight because my uncle lived in Fayetteville. I. And Miss Carr, knew my aunt and uncle and all my cousins and so that, that made it a little lighter. She wasn't talking to a stranger of course she knew my uncle James that worked for the trucking company here in the area. And so that, that connected and she had heard of me but had not met me. And so it, it just, I was able enough to talk to her and included her in things that that I felt was very important and didn't leave her out. I didn't leave her out at all. 

[00:21:50] mike.: What's that like to sit with a descendant of Rock Van Winkle? 

[00:21:54] jerry moore.: I feel good about it, and I was glad that I was able enough to share their history. They didn't know, but when I found the record of where he lived. Through the research and the books in the office, I realized that I, we were sitting with across the street from Rock's land, 20 acres of pecan trees and other growth that, that he actually built and the house, he built that to me and I found out when I was writing it, it gave me inspiration 'cause I could sit here and look out and visualize him out there, which many people don't have that honor to do.

[00:22:29] 


transition to tour.


[00:22:30] mike.: This is Mike and we're gonna take a little bit of a turn in this interview because now that you've heard a little bit of the story and have some context for who Aaron Anderson, also known as Rock Van Winkle was. We're gonna join Mr. Jerry Moore for a drive through Bentonville. He's taking us on a tour of three places that were significant in Rock van Winkle's life.

[00:22:49] mike.: Our first stop is the home of Rock Van Winkle owned at the time of his death in 1904. It is a stone farmhouse that's now over 120 years old, built on land that he purchased in 1898. The home still stands today at what is now called 1 0 1 Northwest Olinka Pass Street. It's about a half a mile west of downtown Bentonville just off of Highway 72.

[00:23:10] mike.: Let's go ahead and join Mr. Moore at Rock Van Winkle's House as we start our tour. 


tour of Rock Van Winkle significant sites in Bentonvillehouse of Rock Van Winkle.


[00:23:16] mike.: so we so we're here with Jerry Moore and he has brought us to the house that Rock Van Winkle lived in when he passed away. Tell us the 

[00:23:24] jerry moore.: story. 

[00:23:24] jerry moore.: Yes. As he moved from War Eagle, he moved down to Johnson . Then he really came the area, it was out by the airport . The Andersons brought him in to, to, I guess to work for him. And then Peter Van Winkle, we don't know whether we bought, he bought him or hired him. And so that's how he and Peter came. And so he began to work with Peter and became his man servant. And I would say partner too 'cause he continued the process until Peter died and then until he died, he had that connection with the Van Winkle.

[00:24:00] jerry moore.: And and then in in I guess early 19 hundreds before he died in 1904, he bought this area of Bentonville. And this is the house that he, the rock actually built. And it's and we can assume that the wood came from the mill. Mm-hmm. And in the basement here is a iron rail. And it's holding up the foundation and it has Chicago railroad or railroad company that bought the spray that comes down through Johnson going to, to Springdale from Springdale on. And so that's like proof that this was his house and we can't say that he had probably died in the, on, in the bedroom and the family said has come, has redone it, of course. And there is the bell, I assume it was a dinner bell that was used. And and the, that was the front of the house. 'cause I was, that was the main road to Centeron which is north second now. And then this, then I guess this was put on later.

[00:25:03] mike.: So these stones in this home, he probably laid or Yes. Part of putting his hands on those. 

[00:25:08] jerry moore.: Yes. And and of course Jane his wife lived a few years after that here in the house and the children. And then after Jane died, the house was, begin to be, it got sold and moved on.

[00:25:25] jerry moore.: Yeah. 

[00:25:25] mike.: And how is this house commemorated within Bentonville or Northwest Arkansas? Do what? I've lived here for 40 years and I never knew this was his home. 

[00:25:33] jerry moore.: I know. 

[00:25:34] mike.: So how, like where is this in our public memory? 

[00:25:36] jerry moore.: I bought it to light when when we were doing the story on, on him, Dr. Huggard and I had people that worked in abstract companies and in the historical society and they pulled it all up for me and I came and found it.

[00:25:50] mike.: But there's no, this is not in our history museums.

[00:25:53] mike.: No.

[00:25:53] mike.: This is not in our, there's no placard that says anything. M it's not on the historical no register. No register of historic places.

[00:26:01] jerry moore.: No, not at all. And when I found out it was, I came, someone else owned it and they gave. Full ring of the house. So I went in the house and said In the house before it was remodeled? No, it would've been remodeled right then. They have remodeled it a little bit after that, but generally the way it was about three or four years ago. Oh, when? This, when this couple moved in. Okay. And so I had gone in before they sold it to this couple and went to the basement. And when I got to the basement and saw the rail, I knew it was true. Yeah. It was true.

[00:26:31] jerry moore.: Can you imagine Rock being on that porch and been in a house and they, because they have somewhat redone the house, redecorated it and this in one of the home magazines. I don't know which one that about two years ago be at home. At home, April edition at home. The shows, the renovation they did inside, but lots of the floors and the cabinets. Art craftsman's was actually in the house, original in the floors. 

[00:26:59] mike.: What was it like for you when you first walked into this home? 

[00:27:02] jerry moore.: I cried. I cried when I came in because. It was part of history that I felt I could bring a light to it. So what I did, I told Dr. Huggard, I said, now there's gonna be two viewpoints. You're gonna have a historical viewpoint, and I'm gonna have the sociological viewpoint, which is rock's communication in the area.

[00:27:22] jerry moore.: His interaction was most unusual for two races of that particular time. But he had to deal with two worlds. He had to deal with the clique, the black group and the white business group that he became very proper in. He went with rock. He went with rock to restaurants. The blacks couldn't be, and he was in Rogers after dark. And he would go into the restaurants and listen to Rock, do the deals and they said he can't come here, he come in. He said he's with me. And then, and then he had a rebuttal to everything that that was said. And then he said, and he said, and they, I made a point in some of the articles in obituary that he was a democrat. They said why would he be a Democrat in that, 

[00:28:02] mike.: a southern Democrat at the time, 

[00:28:03] jerry moore.: a Southern Democrat the son-in-law to Peter Van Wrinkle was the state senator and worked for him. And Rock taught the senator how to do business. So when he gained the saw mill from the van marrying of Peter's daughter, rock was already there telling him how to do and the granddaughters. The great-granddaughter, miss Carr has never been here. 

[00:28:24] mike.: So the property we're, the house that we're standing at is really between Southwest second and northwest third.

[00:28:30] jerry moore.: Yes. In which he owned

[00:28:32] mike.: and he owned all that property.

[00:28:33] jerry moore.: 20 acres of that between L Street to, I think the first street back here, or second Street back. All this was his, all of this was his. And doing a abstract, doing an agricultural census of what they had. He had two buggies, two carriages, not one. He had two, which is like having a two Cadillacs. Yeah, I can imagine. He probably planted this tree. These trees.

[00:28:57] mike.: Yeah. These are old sycamore trees, huh? Huh? Is that pecan tree pecan?

[00:29:01] jerry moore.: Yeah. And it's pecan. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:04] mike.: How do you feel standing here today?

[00:29:05] jerry moore.: Like I always do. I come by all the time.

[00:29:08] mike.: No one will be able to see your face, but you're smiling from ear to ear.

[00:29:11] jerry moore.: Oh, that's true. That's true. It, I feel very at peace. And the first time I came here, I can walk into a place and I can feel the spirit. I can feel the presence of the person and very welcoming. And so when I come here I come by all the time 'cause I come through here going to the store. So I would come back here at least once or twice a week. And I always remember this,

[00:29:32] mike.: I feel like I could just stand here and get a chair and we could have a conversation here forever.

[00:29:37] jerry moore.: And someone built a little, one lady that lived here, the first one that bought it after rock them, she put a beauty shop. And so that was her beauty shop.

[00:29:45] mike.: I can see the stones a little bit different.

[00:29:47] jerry moore.: Yeah. And then the other person lived here, had a pottery and so she had pottery. Oh, 

[00:29:51] mike.: Can you imagine what this looked like a hundred years ago?

[00:29:53] jerry moore.: And this is probably one of the first or two places outside the city 'cause this was not in the city, this was not in the city. And those rooms are original bedrooms that were here in the house, in the original house. 

[00:30:06] mike.: So structurally, yeah. I mean it's not significantly different than what it was first all,

[00:30:10] jerry moore.: I think they had to have, they had to have a water pump because the water and the springs. And so they have a pump in the basement too. It has the, you need me to be gentle. It has the, it has its own world too.


story notoriaty 


[00:30:21] mike.: you, me, you mentioned this a little bit, but like, how many people come ask you about this story?

[00:30:24] jerry moore.: You are the first ones that actually has come past the article to, to it more in depth about it. And you are the first ones I've shown the house to.

[00:30:36] mike.: I'm honored. Honored that you would do that. Have you tried with our historians, our city, to get this into our public memory?

[00:30:43] jerry moore.: Yeah, I bet they have. They have. I don't know what they. What the project is, a Leah works at the county at the historical Society. I think she had tried to do it before and, but one thing, the next place we're going into is the tablet that is at the memorial or whatever they call that park. And we'll tell you more about that.

[00:31:03] mike.: Okay. Let's go. 

[00:31:04] jerry moore.: I.


transition from house to grave. 


[00:31:04] mike.: Okay, we've now arrived at the second site that Jerry Moore wanted to show us. This is the grave of Aaron Anderson Rock Van Winkle, that's located in the Bentonville Cemetery. His headstone sits in the southwest section of the cemetery, right alongside one of the narrow winding roads that cut through the grounds.

[00:31:23] mike.: As soon as we stepped outta the car, the headstone was clearly visible and the first thing that Jerry pointed out was the size and shape and dimension of the headstone.

[00:31:32] mike.: We'll include the exact location of the grave in the episode webpage if you'd like to go and visit.

[00:31:37] mike.: But now let's rejoin the conversation with Jerry at the cemetery. 


at the grave.


[00:31:41] jerry moore.: oh, okay. Now this is his. And the rumor was that the Andersons paid for this. Oh, really? And couldn't find out. They did not. Okay. But Rock had paid for it, because there are four spots. There are four empty spots. It's, that is still owned by the van, by the Winkle that Ellis has bought when he bought for his dad.

[00:32:05] jerry moore.: Yes. When he when he came, he was Aaron Anderson. And his father was Vincent. Okay. And when he transferred to Van Winkle, his father became Van Winkle as well. Van and Van Winkle. Okay. And so he took, he kept the Anderson name 'cause they were the one that bought him to this area, which happened to be the airport. And and then in the time went on, he bought the land on Johnson down from Johnson Mill from his childhood. His childhood friend Anderson.

[00:32:36] jerry moore.: Wow. And so they, yeah, they kept in contact.

[00:32:38] jerry moore.: And he was brought here, I believe in the early 1830s. Yeah. He was like, yeah.

[00:32:41] jerry moore.: Yeah. He was young. 

[00:32:43] mike.: How old was he when he first came here? Do you know? 

[00:32:45] jerry moore.: I don't quite know. He wasn't maybe a teenager. Maybe I can't, I have to find out for sure, but I don't know exactly how it was when he came here, but he came with the Andersons from Alabama. But when he, by the time he was in slavery, he was a kid. And then then when he came here I guess in the 1830s. 1830s or before statehood, maybe. 

[00:33:08] jerry moore.: But what bothers me, I don't know where Jane is, I don't know if Jane was actually Ellis, no Ellis' son, but I know where Janes buried. We don't know where she was she was living here or living, or she now she had it was a lamb. The family connected to that over in Jefferson Cemetery, so she could have been over in, I don't, we haven't found it. Yeah. And found it.

[00:33:32] jerry moore.: Jane's family was owned by the Rich out in Pea Ridge. . And then they then, and then the Civil War, Peter took Jane and Rock to Texas. And after the Civil War, they came back and had to rebuild over what the north had burned and and then they started having their children.

[00:33:54] jerry moore.: And then Vincent, the son, wound up working for the railroad in Van Buren. Yeah. And these are family members within, those that married into the Van Winkle cousins. Oh yeah. Ms. Joe Hall. Barbara's grandfather was Rock's grandson. And, yeah. And he, his Virgil's father married Rock's daughter, Sophie. And that's where Ms. Joel's name? Sophie Hall, and she came out all the time and didn't realize that's where he was buried.

[00:34:24] jerry moore.: We walked down this way. 

[00:34:28] jerry moore.: All cemeteries was segregated, but Rock was buried with Mason Honors.

[00:34:34] jerry moore.: And what rock contributed is much more than what modern American culture has given credit to. And long as you want the history to be, as long as you want the history to be. The old south that's how you portray it. And this man hit barriers and went across barriers that people of his time would've been killed for and had been killed for.

[00:34:59] jerry moore.: And you know what he was called Uncle Rock? No. Uncle Auntie was the name that the little slave kids gave to the blacks. Here in Bentonville, if you was called uncle. You would with money and prestige. Peter was called uncle. All the white gentleman was called Uncle, uncle James. And that and Uncle Rock too. See uncle actually mean or a relative, A close friend or relative? Not a slavery difference 'cause they had no name. So they called him aunt and uncle, and which is which we have been pushed down through history.

[00:35:32] jerry moore.: He had a obituary in two different newspapers. One of the 1904, it said that JAC said Uncle Rock was a good darkie. In the Springdale paper, believe it or not, it didn't use that word. It, that colored or, but it I see. I looked at all those fine things when I arriving word terminology, and JC spoke at the funeral, which you may not know that even white funeral, black special blacks was invited and sat in the back at black funeral.

[00:36:03] jerry moore.: Whites was invited and sat in the bag, and J-A-J-A-C Blackburn gave the eulogy because he was a friend, a personal friend, and worked with rock, but also was the leading politician of the time.

[00:36:18] mike.: What I appreciate is that I think place matters a lot and so it's one thing to sit and ask about it. It's another thing for you to take us and

[00:36:25] jerry moore.: look at rock is in the same line with Peel. And then if you look across, you'll see Walton's from here. You'll see Walton's on the front. See, that's the, that is significant. His place of burial might been on the back row, but today he's on the front row of the leading industry in the country, home base of the biggest worldwide enterprise. 

[00:36:51] mike.: This is the story, the whitewashing of Northwest Arkansas.

[00:36:54] jerry moore.: It is.

[00:36:55] mike.: That, that these stories took place here. And to hear you talk about the black families that lived in this place 

[00:37:03] jerry moore.: none downtown of a big of these leading in retailer. They're not in our the land. They're not out in the country, 

[00:37:10] mike.: but they're not in our public memory. It's been removed.

[00:37:13] jerry moore.: No, it feels like no. And the blacks that was associated with them were not necessarily slaves. This man right here made Peter Rich.

[00:37:22] mike.: Yes he did.

[00:37:23] jerry moore.: This man right here, Peter, the van, the wife, Van Winkles wouldn't be worth a dime. It wasn't for this man. Amazing. And some of the Van winkles over and Ger said, I don't need to meet at relatives, the black relatives. Wow. He didn't say black relatives. He said I don't need to meet them.

[00:37:37] mike.: This is talking about the White Van Winkle family. Yes. Did, there must be some connection between them still. Do you, are you aware of that? 

[00:37:43] jerry moore.: No, not, no connection? No. There, there's no connection to the present Van Winkle that I've talked to have not met, barbara. 

[00:37:51] mike.: And where are they? Where are the white Van Winkle.

[00:37:53] jerry moore.: The white Van Winkles. Yeah. Rogers

[00:37:56] mike.: Mr. Moore. We've got, we got a lot of work to do. 

[00:37:58] jerry moore.: You asked for it. I invited them to the presentation. Huh And one in Rogers said I, I need to meet him.


transition from cemetary to James Berry Park.


[00:38:05] mike.: All right, well now we're headed to the third and final stop on our tour. A place that's not tied just to rock Van Winkle's life. But to how he's remembered in public memory. Just east of the Bentonville Cemetery sets James Barry Park. It's better known to many as the site where the Confederate statue from the Bentonville Square was relocated.

[00:38:25] mike.: On the east side of the park, you're gonna find a series of tablets. They honor individuals and ideals that were seen as shaping Bentonville's early identity. One of those tablets is titled Community, and it includes a brief description of Rock Van Winkle's Life. It's the only known public marker that acknowledges his contribution, and yet it stands in the shadow of a monument to the Confederacy.

[00:38:47] mike.: Let's go ahead and join Jerry Moore at James Barry Park.


James Berry Memorial Park.


[00:38:52] mike.: Okay, so Mr. Moore, what are we walking up to right now?

[00:38:54] jerry moore.: Okay. This is the Memorial Park, I believe you call it. James Berry Park. And this was the tribute to the Governor and Senator James Berry. And and there's also a place to replace the Confederate statue. And you can notice the similarity is that get this, this is, these are from north and south, right? The wall here, north and south? And I had to fight the Daughters of the Confederacy to get this put in. Wow.

[00:39:26] jerry moore.: They wanted Mrs. Gilbert ' cause she, helped raised the Walton kids. 

[00:39:29] mike.: Who is responsible for the text that's on here? Did you help craft some of that? Yeah, Do you feel like this text that's here is accurate of his story?

[00:39:40] jerry moore.: Yes. Yes. I worked behind the scene with the Benton County, the c the committee and had an interview with the young, the man that's on the committee. I, we at the library now.

[00:39:52] mike.: Was this part of the original plan? Was this asked to be added later? 

[00:39:56] jerry moore.: I can't say it was part of the plan, but I felt like it wasn't, and I felt like if Ms. Gilbert's going to be in there, he needs to be here more than, I think he deserves just as much praise, if not more. That's my opinion.

[00:40:11] jerry moore.: Why do you feel that way?

[00:40:12] jerry moore.: Because he changed society. He changed the economics of this area. And if it wasn't for this man. We wouldn't have houses, the courthouses in these towns. We wouldn't have Springdale, Lowell, Bentonville, and Rogers if it wasn't for this man's contribution with Peter and wouldn't have the University of Arkansas. Old Main, if it wasn't for him delivering, he delivered timber. Yeah. And what did she deliver? She was an example of the institution. The peculiar institution. See and every town has their special black folk. Yeah. I can say that because I know it happens, and, Rabbit shined shoes. That part, that gave him a place in society too. 'cause he made the bad Seem good. See, lots of times we want the bad look good and the good look bad is how we interpret it. I'm just as proud of this. And that that, that lots of things. 'Cause this man here, that, man, I don't think that person would've been here without the achievement that this man made. And 

[00:41:19] mike.: you're pointing to James Berry's, James Berry


confederate statue comments.


[00:41:21] mike.: do you feel like moving the statue from downtown to this place was the right thing to do? 

[00:41:26] jerry moore.: The statue to me symbolize a period of history. It's not the statue that bothers you, it's the people that walks in front of it and behind it and around it. That's what bothers me. People can come here and walk around that, but how do they feel as they walk around? I don't feel, I don't feel any remorse. I don't feel any racism or prejudice. I just see a stature. It's the people that walks around. It makes it what it wants it to be.

[00:41:53] mike.: Do you feel like the statue should be standing there today? 

[00:41:56] jerry moore.: It's not for me to say ' cause that's never been part of my history. My, my history hasn't been statues. It's been individual people in their heart and their soul and what they believe in and their mind. Statues is just a symbol, a con. A concrete has no, a concrete has no physical, not have no body, no mind, no way of thinking. It just stands in all weather.

[00:42:18] mike.: Do you feel like, Rock Van Winkle deserves a larger presence in this place. 

[00:42:22] jerry moore.: No, I think it, I think this right here is enough. He has his place. Because many years, some people today think he shouldn't be here, but he's here. He's next to James Berry. He's not way over beyond by himself at the last marker. The park where he's standing. Tell more about who he is than anything in his place. When I came, I looked over there ' cause I said he'd be over in the corner, but now he's right next to James Berry.

[00:42:49] mike.: His really OI mean, to my understanding, this is the only public acknowledgement of his role.

[00:42:57] jerry moore.: It is

[00:42:57] mike.: in the city, but it's confined within this park.

[00:43:00] jerry moore.: It is.

[00:43:01] mike.: Does it belong outside of this park as well? 

[00:43:03] jerry moore.: No. He's with those that have been honored. He is he's here. He actually almost not have been here, but I felt he needed to be here, and when I saw Elizabeth Gilbert, I says I knew she was gonna be here. I said, Uhuh Rock needs to be here, and they both are here completely. She had friendship and he had community, which is important. He was part of the community. He made the community. If it wasn't for him, this one may not be a community. It wouldn't be what it is that if he wasn't here to help build it. See, you are talking about community. That's what your whole goal is. Yes, sir. Talk about community. Who represented the community Van Winkle? Community was more important that friendship and perseverance and all those other things.

[00:43:47] mike.: But I guess Mr. Moore, to me and I don't think I would've noticed that until you said this, but the way that this park represents community Uhhuh is with this man.

[00:43:56] jerry moore.: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of all the things that he could have been Timberman, industrialists and the white women, but no, he's the community . 

[00:44:05] mike.: Do you think what would've happened in northwest Arkansas would've happened apart from the contribution of this type of community?

[00:44:13] jerry moore.: No, because he started it. He built a foundation in which we are now standing on. He helped build the foundation. These people was part of what was already established and helped build along with him. He may be unknown to the public, but he is not unknown to the ages.

[00:44:33] jerry moore.: And lot of people and a lot people said, why didn't the black Van Winkles have their status? They stopped it. Yeah. They stopped it because what went on in Rock's family and all the other families. Was hush. Hush. They didn't want no one to know. Thousands of people have never been here. They've never been in that park and get this. I know two of the distant cousins of James Berry.

[00:44:56] mike.: What do, as you meet with some of these relatives and descendants, what do they say about this? Are they curious? Yeah. Do they wanna stay away from it, do they? 

[00:45:04] jerry moore.: No. One of the distant cousins was the state policeman in my hometown and very dear friends of mine, and I saw him last week. And then the other cousin worked with me at, he worked with me at NWACC and that's how I found out that James, Barry was a relative. 'cause I mentioned it. 

[00:45:22] mike.: Now have you run into people that don't want you to tell this, these stories? 

[00:45:27] jerry moore.: No, because I don't tell very many people this story.

[00:45:29] mike.: Why is that?

[00:45:31] jerry moore.: They never asked and I never been. And then when I'm in the city cares less. That's how I feel.

[00:45:36] mike.: But you've tried, you've held like forums

[00:45:39] jerry moore.: i've had 35, 40 people, not anyone from the city there that's in the loss to me. 

[00:45:44] mike.: Are those predominantly white community members that come and wanna learn?

[00:45:47] jerry moore.: Yes.

[00:45:47] mike.: What do you think, what do you think draws them to learn this history? 

[00:45:50] jerry moore.: They're interested in knowing their true selves and knowing what the community was and what has come to be. People drive this house by this house every day and duck and realize the importance of that house. It's just a house. And black people work for Walmart and work for the vendors. Pass that house and do not know. If it wasn't for that man, they would be living here .

[00:46:12] jerry moore.: I grew up in a town, a coal mining town center of the Arkansas Socialist Party. So you know, my philosophy's a little bit different and I had to deal with blacks at the university because I saw things differently. Not that I was better, no, that's then I didn't grow up with prejudice and discrimination.

[00:46:30] jerry moore.: I did, but not as, not to a point. Because my grandfather, Scott Irish, and then my other great, my other great-grandpa lived in Wal. You know where Waldron is? Yes, sir, I do. Okay.

[00:46:41] jerry moore.: My great-great-grandfather Moore came to Waldron in 1870. He acquired Homestead Land before he died at 106.. He had over 600 acres of timber, the second leading timber person in the county, and he had the same status that Rock had in Scott County. Yeah, I can go and sit and eat at a restaurant in Mansfield on the land of one of my great-great-grandfather. I could look outta an integrated high school every day and see the land of my great-great-grandfather and great-grandfather, the land of my grandmother that I was raised with and saw every day where her father was born.

[00:47:25] jerry moore.: So I didn't had to hold my head down because my family had clout, but it wasn't based on money. My grandfather was well known and well-liked. 


transition back to rest of interview at Jerry Moore's home.


[00:47:33] mike.: Well, that concludes our tour of the three sites that were tied to the life and legacy of Rock Van Winkle. With each stop from his historic stone farmhouse, to his resting place at the Bentonville Cemetery, to the solitary public marker. At James Barry Park, we were reminded that place matters. These locations just don't tell us where someone lived or died. They reveal how memory is preserved, how stories are told, and how some are remembered while others are nearly forgotten.

[00:48:02] mike.: We're gonna now return to our conversation with Mr. Ward's home in Bentonville to finish out the episode.


return to interview.


[00:48:10] mike.: Yeah, we just went on a tour. You took us around Bentonville to these significant sites. Where he lived and he died. Mm-hmm. His, In the Bentonville Cemetery. Where he is buried today. Mm-hmm. Even to James Berry, the where the Civil War statue is today. Where Aaron is remembered as a part of that. 

[00:48:27] jerry moore.: And I thought behind the scene. To be sure that he would be included. Of all the people that I've done research on, not taking back the history, I knew Ms. Ms. Gilbert's granddaughter as well. We had lots of dinners at Ms. Joe Hall's after they came back, before she died. And but I never knew that history neither, she. I didn't grow up there, so why would you be important about it? And to me it's just, it's been something that has come part of me and I felt that today would be a little bit different. I felt like you need to see what we were gonna talk about. Not just hear it, but actually walk where a Rock has walked. You walked up the stairs to the house. And not many people can say they walked where Rock had, walked, and I wanted you to see the significance of where he's buried at the cemetery. And that his table that is in the James Berry Park is not in the back. It's not on a wall by itself in the corner. It's right next to James Berry and on it brings the all this together. Rock was a community builder, and that's what he is known in the community. And if it wasn't for Rock, we wouldn't have the community we have today. 

[00:49:46] mike.: Explain that. What do you mean by that?


meaning of how Rock built this community.


[00:49:48] jerry moore.: What I mean today we, look we, most of us have seen society change politically, religiously, economically, racially, but still in the back of our minds we sometimes have trouble to throw away the past that I feel had been overplayed and we had to build a future out of something, like it's like birth. We come into this world being fed by somebody else, clothed by somebody else, bathed by somebody else, kissed and hugged, and even ignored by somebody else. That's how society is. Someone else built something for us, and it's how we take what they build to make our life better.

[00:50:37] jerry moore.: And I can go on and on and feel like I, people have been bad to me and so forth. I have relatives that have treated me much worse than any ranked stranger, and sometimes we have to get beyond skin color that our society has branded in our society and sexism and realize that we're all our individuals and we all are not perfect.

[00:50:59] jerry moore.: Not all of us can say every day that they are safe because of the owner of Jesus. Some people are comfortable because they are in the state of ignorance. Don't want to know, don't want to learn, and think that their background and what their parents taught them was the best way. Some of it was and some of it wasn't.

[00:51:19] mike.: Yeah, I. I need to sit with that for a moment. what was Mrs. Carr's reaction when you had a conversation with her? 

[00:51:28] jerry moore.: She cried. It was just opened the door of a Pandora box for her. I could see. And I was just open with her. I was frank with her. I first met her for the interview, her and her sister, and the library federal Library. And we interviewed her, Dr. Huggard and I, and we went from there. And then I kept her posted on everything and made sure that she got a that she got a copy of the book. And while we finished the book. As we were writing it, it dawned on me she had never been to Van Winkle Holler. She had never been where Rock and Jane started until this book was written in 2001. But it was, that's the first time she didn't know how to get out there. I had to tell her I had to get out there and walked with her and her sister. And it was just something they had never heard to look down and see the foundation where they lived and where they, their kids was born, and then up the lane was the white Van Winkles real close and played together, and it was overwhelming for her.

[00:52:30] jerry moore.: It was something that she that brought lots of things. I think it, it may connected her sisters and other relatives, but maybe it opened up a secret that they still don't know what it was. And I wasn't trying to find out a secret. I was trying to find out where they came from.

[00:52:52] mike.: What does Northwest Arkansas owe to Rock Van Winkle? 

[00:52:56] jerry moore.: What they owed Rock and what they have given Rock is two different things. They haven't given him the right place in society that I feel like he deserved. But I did Dr. Huggard and I did Dr. Hug and I gave this community something that they did not know or did not want to and that's all I can say. We gave it to 'em. Whether the city gave it to him or not, we gave it to him.

[00:53:21] mike.: What as you've shared this research and the, these findings and the story of Rock Van Winkle. Yeah. What has been the reaction by the community? 

[00:53:29] jerry moore.: We've had two big meetings, three big meetings. The first we introduced the book at the college and it had a big crowd lots of people from my church. And it was a big crowd. And that's why I, that's why I introduced Barbara, Ms. Carr and her sister to the public. With that connection. And then we started having a gathering at Hobbs, which is where it's located area.

[00:53:55] jerry moore.: And the first year we had a standing room, only had a big crowd the year before last. I got there, we had four people, and the reason why the new law passed by the governor and the legislature that we was, enticing and spreading black history or whatever history they, they wanted us to do and not do. And so last year we chose not to do it at all because if the if the government, the state of Arkansas don't want to contribute with their family, I don't have that time for those folks. If the city don't want to talk about it, that's their fault. It's not mine. And I don't owe them anything.

[00:54:33] jerry moore.: And and then we had a opening, we had, I wrote a screenplay and I have four or five different guys that did the script reading Rock, Peter, JC Blackburn in the discussion. And we had it as part of the hundred 50th anniversary for Bentonville at the library. No one from the government showed up. No one from the county showed up and no one from the committee showed up. And that in itself told me, I've given them Dr. Hubbard and I have given them the story of rock. If they want it, it's there. If it's not, it's fine with me. I've done what I need to do.

[00:55:12] jerry moore.: Rock had more power than politicians of today.

[00:55:15] jerry moore.: And I'm gonna put it that Frank about it. They don't owe anything to Rock. They rock gave them a better life than it probably would've had, and we get wrapped up in the mayors and the city directors, that's politics, of the sociologically thinking there's two human institutions that people do not have to participate in.

[00:55:35] jerry moore.: Religion and politics, but people think that religion and politics runs the society. What runs the society, the families that make the people and the economy that feed or starve you. And to me the elected officials come and go. Only thing that changes is the name. The power structure is the same. And talking about Rock Van Winkle, don't put food on your table. It don't get bills passed in your council meetings, and it doesn't give you the economic basis that you want to kick around and select who you want in it or not.

[00:56:13] mike.: This history is right here in our doorstep . I've passed Rock Van Winkle's house for 40 years, and I never knew this man or this man's story. We were so close to it. Yet, from a community public memory, we just can't seem to get there. What is happening? 

[00:56:36] jerry moore.: The society in which we live and the culture in which we came up. Many of the people that needs to listen, this was born at a different time period. Some was born when our society was racially divided, economically divided not knowing that. And now we live in a new generation in which we have computers, ai, and somebody thinking for you, someone adding money for you. You don't have to depend on what knowledge or lack of knowledge your parents gave you. And I think that's where we're all right now. 

[00:57:12] mike.: I ask everybody that I talk to these two questions, I want to know what your fears are and what I mean by that is within the scope of the conversation that we've had about history and the preservation of it, or the lack of preservation and what you know about northwest Arkansas, what are your fears for this place?

[00:57:29] jerry moore.: Fears is what you want 'em to be fierce. If you want something to be joy, you can make it be joyful. And I didn't dream as a young baby, young child, a teenager, young adult, driving on Walton Boulevard, that in my retirement age that I would be within two blocks. Every town that I have lived in 71 highway has gone through it.

[00:57:54] jerry moore.: So I began in Kansas City on 71 highway to the west, and when I die, I'll be on the west side of 71. Highway fears is when you don't know where you are going. We can only be fearful of things we don't know are fearful of something that we want to know and don't want to know. The Van Winkle, the Black Van Winkle family had a fear. And that fear is still, those that concerned, are still trying to find out what it is. And I think the fears that we have is when we let it come consciousness and take us over and I've been in places that I like it to be sitting here. And I learned long time ago when you walk into a room the faces that you see and faces that look upon you.

[00:58:41] jerry moore.: There are some that don't like you won't like you and afraid think their life will change because you're there, but there's always someone in that crowd. They give you hope and help you walk your daily life. If you do not know who you are. This is the key. If you don't know who you are, no one can tell you. But once you know who you are, you can make it and you will survive. But you have to know who you are in order to deal with reality. ' cause what may be real to some people instead of fantasy to others. 

[00:59:19] mike.: You may have just answered this question and I wanna ask it. One of the things that we try to do is find this idea of what does community wholeness look like, and within this vein of your work and the scope of our conversation and what you know of this place, what is, when I say that wholeness, what does community wholeness look like?

[00:59:39] jerry moore.: I don't think I can define that. ' cause what I find as wholeness is being yourself, knowing who you are. This community has given me a job. It's given me material things that I probably would've not have had. And lots of times we get caught up in the politicking and economics, and religion, beliefs and all these other things, and lose value, lose our morals, lose our belief system because we want to be better and some people is doing the best they can.

[01:00:15] jerry moore.: I do not stop and give people money on the streets standing in front of Walmart begging, and every time I look for a job. I had one thing going against me, my skin color. If I let that keep me from going and doing things, I wouldn't be here. I learned a long time ago, I, my skin color, God gave me this brown nose and these brown eyes and this smile and how I see the world. Man didn't give it to me. God did and that is spiritual. It is not religion. Spirituality is what is in your soul and what's in your mind and how you accept and reach out to other people. And this community has, its good and bad, like all community, but you had to realize we are human.

[01:01:03] mike.: Well, Mr. Moore, I'm incredibly humbled to be able to just follow you around today and to hear the stories that you can tell. Oh, probably not 

[01:01:10] jerry moore.: the last time I was. 

[01:01:11] mike.: No sir. Well, You may get tired of seeing us, but I'm just incredibly humbled and I'm just so unbelievably thankful for the work that you have done to bring and make sure that this does not pass from our public memory, because yes, it is about Rock Van Winkle, but it's about so much more, 

[01:01:29] jerry moore.: There's been lots of Rock's out there, but they, but lots of times they get caught into this trap. You know what society wants you to be in? I, I want you over here 'cause you're light-skinned, or, I don't want you over here because you are, whatever. You know that's what we have to deal with. But what do you want to deal with?

[01:01:45] jerry moore.: I'm given the history and things about rock. The city don't have to approve it. The mayor don't have to agree with me and most people don't have to read it. That's fine with me. But there would be somebody that, that give them hope in their own life and struggles that they have.

[01:01:59] jerry moore.: Everybody's struggle, but each struggles different is how we going to handle that struggle, and that and coming to, coming here to today, I had no idea when I'm done, the research that that I'll be here today talking about it. And that's what gives me joy. You know that I'm reaching somebody.

[01:02:18] mike.: You are, and I think I'll let you have the last word with, there's a lot of Rocks out there, and I believe that whole lot. 

[01:02:25] jerry moore.: There's lot of rocks out there. 

[01:02:25] mike.: Mr. Moore, thank you for your time. 

[01:02:27] jerry moore.: Thank you.


episode outro.


[01:02:30] jerry moore.: Well, a deep thank you to Mr. Moore for not only taking the time to speak with us, but for giving so much of his life and time to preserve these histories. His care for Rock Van Winkle's legacy reminds us that memory is not a passive act. It's something that we must fight to protect, especially when the forces of silence and erasure, they run deep.

[01:02:48] jerry moore.: From the stone farmhouse that rock purchased in 1898 to his final resting place in the southwest corner of Bentonville Cemetery to the public tablet at James Berry Park. We are reminded that memory is tied to land, that belonging is physical, and that even when the official story leaves someone out, the land still holds traces of their life.

[01:03:08] jerry moore.: This episode, like many in this season, is asking us to confront what has been buried and to consider the cost of forgetting. If Dr. Todd Stockdale, in the previous episode, helped us explore how dominant ideologies have shaped who we see as fully human. Then this conversation with Jerry Moore brings that into focus. What does it mean to live labor and to leave a mark in a place and still risk being forgotten?

[01:03:31] jerry moore.: Because to think that only Rock Van Winkle was able to leave his mark on history is to pretend that what we remember is the full story. And so today, within the memory of Rock Van Winkle, we also hold space for others who went before and after, whose stories were lost or erased.

[01:03:47] jerry moore.: From here, we begin the final arc of our season. We have one more conversation to share, a closing reflection on the season and the story of northwest Arkansas. We return one last time to the Anderson family and to the descendants of those who were once enslaved here. Their voices will close out the season.

[01:04:04] jerry moore.: In this next episode, we'll sit down with Barbara Carr, a direct descendant of Aaron Anderson Rock Van Winkle. Hers is a voice that has been too long absent from our public memory, she will have the last word in this season.

[01:04:16] jerry moore.: This season of the underview is an invitation to see what has been hidden, to hear what has been silenced, and to remember what has been erased, all in the hopes of healing what has been broken. We're learning to tell the story of this place in full so that a truer belonging might be possible.


route.


[01:04:30] jerry moore.: And for this episode, which I haven't done in a while, I'm including a bike route of both the tour that Jerry Moore took me on and a journey out to the place where Rock Van Winkle would've first lived when he came to Northwest Arkansas in the 1830s.

[01:04:42] jerry moore.: I would encourage you to take the time to ride this route, drive it if you must, or you can also just choose a portion of the route that's closer to Bentonville of the three sites that we discussed in this interview.

[01:04:52] jerry moore.: Well, we've gone through a lot today and our next episode will be the final guest in this series, and so I wanna say thank you for listening, and thank you for being the most important part of what our community is becoming.

[01:05:02] jerry moore.: This is the underview, an exploration in the shaping of our place.

[01:05:08]